[1/23/08] "I’m almost finished writing a book about the Southern Division of the Port Townsend Southern RR, which ran between Olympia and Tenino, WA (15 miles) and was taken up in 1916 when the NP RR built the Point Defiance cut-off. In your website, you mention that ex PTS # 3 went to Alaska Northern in 1915 and became ARR # 20. I have however, heard a rumor (that as yet I have been unable to trace) that between the PTS and the Alaska Northern, Engine # 3 spent some time on the McKenna Lumber Co RR in Pierce Co, WA." -- James Hannum

"I've pulled everything I have on the early ARR steamers, and am going through it. The more I look at ARR #20 data, the more I think that when it came to Alaska it went directly to the Alaska Engineering Comission(ARR), rather than the via the Alaska Northern. As to it going to the McKenna Limber Co., the dates would seem to allow that to be possible. I really don't have any info on McKenna Lumber.

"Are there good photos of this loco as NP #369, or as PTS #3 ?

"When I compare PTS #3 to ARR #20, I'm not really sure they're the same machine. Compare the photo of #20 to the diagram and photos that Mr. Hannum sent to John's ARR site. The style of the headlight, sand and steam domes are different, the position of the air pump is different, and the stack on PTS#3 looks wider and straight( a replacement ?), on #20 it's tapered (original ?). I know that these are all changeable items, but it seems odd.

"The ARR record keeping in the 1920's was very sloppy, with numerous errors, and I suspect more errors that we can't yet proove or disproove. Most of these have to do with the histories, purchase data, renumberings. The mechanical data seems more reliable, if it was wrong it probably would have been corrected..

"I am unaware of any existing Alaska Central or Alaska Northern records dealing with rolling stock. The early ARR records (which probably had the AC/AN records) burned in the early 50's in a shop fire. All of what we "know" has been reconstructed from various fragmentary sources. There are several mysteries/questions, and a lot of info that has only one reference or source.

"I understand that the Northern Pacific steam records exist in a library in Minnesota, I haven't been able to purse that yet. I don't know how far back they go.
The ARR equipment diagrams say that #20 was built by Rhode Island locomotive Works, came from the Alaska Northern, and was put in service in 1915. Locomotive historians Doug Richter and the late Gerald Best were convinced that #20 had the style details of a Baldwin, not a Rhode Island. I don't think it really came from the AN. It was put in service at Seward and used on the old AN part of the ARR during construction, and I've seen other stuff from Seward refered in ARR paperwok to being ex AN that weren't. (when the government started building the ARR, the were building in five directions, from three disconnected locations: Seward, Anchorage, Nenena. The office was in Anchorage. There was a bunch of equipment with the same #'s on different divisions, etc.

"What is different on the ARR versus NP diagram (I had not seen the NP diagram before) are some mechanical items:

NP # 369 178 Tubes (Flues) 12'2.5" long heating surface 15.31 sq.ft. boiler pressure 140# hieght to to of stack 12'9.5"

ARR #20 218 Tubes (Flues) 12'7" long heating surface 15.79 sq.ft. boiler pressure 175# hieght to to of stack 13'8"

Although tenders can be easily changed or swapped , the tender capacities are very different:

NP #369 9.3 tons coal 3800 gallons water

ARR #20 6 tons coal 3500 gallons water

"I'm tending to think we have a mystery on our hands ! I'll be digging deeper ! Any comments, thoughts, additional info, or a 'hey Don, you messed up' are welcome."- Don Marenzi

Added 12/6/23:

On Oct 29, 2023, at 8:23?AM, Adam Begg wrote:

Hi!
 
I’ve been reading up on the Alaska Central Railway and Alaska Northern Railway locomotives, and your site has been an invaluable source of information and photographs.
 
I was intrigued by the mystery surrounding the original identity of Alaska Railroad #20, and the discussion from James Hannum* and Don Marenzi on your page: https://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/DM-20.html
 
I may have an answer.  Maybe.
 
I definitely agree with the idea that PTS #3 and ARR #20 aren’t the same locomotive.  Don’s notes about the different dimensions and tube counts from the two locomotive diagrams are noteworthy.  It’s definitely unlikely that the ARR would have a locomotive diagram that was inaccurate by those amounts. 
 
What I think may have happened here is that Alaska Central #3 and Alaska Central #4 have gotten their post-Alaska Central careers mixed up.  I was reading John Bruce’s Copper River and Northwestern blog entry on the 4-6-0s (https://copperiverry.blogspot.com/2015/01/equipment-4-6-0s.html) and noticed that CRNW #51 was an ex-Alaska Central locomotive**.  There are plenty of references to the Alaska Central having 4 locomotives, and the Alaska Northern inheriting 3.  John’s blog infers that CRNW #51 must have been AC #4 from your site on ARR #20, but I found this photo on the Alaska Digital Archives:
https://vilda.alaska.edu/digital/collection/cdmg2/id/3092/rec/75
 
It has to be CRNW #51, as #50 had it’s bell between the 2 domes.  The style of the domes, the headlight, the stack and the general style all look a lot like this photo of #3 from your website:
https://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/JH-20-3.jpg
 
Meanwhile, I found a lot of photos of an Alaska Northern 4-6-0.  None with a clear number, but it looks exactly like AC #4.  This locomotive has styling and details that look (to my admittedly untrained eye) exactly like ARR #20
https://alaskahistoricalsociety.org/about-ahs/special-projects/150treaty/150th-resource-library/new-articles/the-city-of-seward-home-of-alaska-day/
https://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/DM-20.html
 
So, my theory is that ARR #20 is actually ex-AN #4, .  Assuming the Alaska Northern kept their locomotive numbers the same as the Alaska Central, they’d have only had 3 locomotives (numbered 1,2 and 4).  Easy to see how “Alaska Northern’s 3rd locomotive” could have become “Alaska Northern #3” in a paperwork error at some point in history.
 
It’s just a theory, and I don’t know if any evidence exists that would conclusively prove it, but I’m interested to hear what you think. Thanks for putting together such a great website!
 
Adam Begg
Model railroader and history enthusiast
Ex-Alaskan, living in Australia
 
 
* I also saw James’ comment about the McKenna Lumber Co.  I did a quick search and didn’t find much on McKenna, but one result was a photo of a 0-4-0 that looks very similar to the couple of photos of an 0-4-0 around Seward that I think is Alaska Railroad #2 / AEC #1.  I’ll definitely look further into that.
** John’s blog has one close up photo captioned as #51, but I’m pretty sure it’s actually a 2-6-0 so must be something else.

 

From: Don Marenzi
Subject: Re: Alaska Railroad #20
Date: November 3, 2023 at 8:48:08?PM EDT

Hi,

I think your analysis of ARR 20 as former AN # 4 is accurate.   I will try to pull all my notes in the near future and see what I might be able to add.

...a paperwork error at some point in history.
As you've found there is a lot of misinformation published on a number of Alaskan locomotives.    There are a lot of errors in the early AEC / ARR paperwork. And not much is known to survive from the AC / AN days.  The AEC had staff in Anchorage, Seattle and Washington DC doing paperwork.  Add that the AEC was building from Seward, two directions from Anchorage and two directions from Nenana. There  were duplicate numbers on locomotives and rolling stock on these disconnected divisions.  Also the AEC brought equipment in to Seward to help rebuild and extend the AC / AN north.  I've seen paperwork referring to all of the equipment used on the Seward division as being "x Alaska Northern" after it connected to the Anchorage line; even if it was brought there by the AEC !   

... I also saw James’ comment about the McKenna Lumber Co.  I did a quick search and didn’t find much on McKenna, but one result was a photo of a 0-4-0 that looks very similar to the couple of photos of an 0-4-0 around Seward that I think is Alaska Railroad #2 / AEC #1.  I’ll definitely look further into that.

This locomotive has been a mystery for quite a while.   If it was purchased from McKenna that would be another new part of the puzzle. 

I've tried for 50-ish years to find a matching 0-4-0: I "believe" this was a former Chicago Burlington & Quincy class E-1. They had 28 of these, most were built in the CB&Q Aurora, ILL shops (which accounts for not matching other 0-4-0's on other builders / RR's) between 1869 and 1888.  17 of these have no record of disposition or retirement date in the CB&Q records. 5 others have retirement  dates before the loco would have been in Alaska.  Some were sold to (or through) RR equipment brokers and ended up on other RR's or industries.  

Broker records are almost impossible to find; tracing that is hard. The AEC and ARR later did buy a lot of equipment through brokers.

I'm glad you're interested in this stuff !  And that 0-4-0 info you found is very interesting!

Don